Posts by Old Goat

140

The effect we are having on the Watchtower is HUGE

by jwfacts in

i was inspired by a recent thread i know i aint gunna crumble the wt, but a girl can dream to look at the effect we as individuals are having on the watchtower society.. 3dogs1husband quoted a story to show that even helping only one person is worth it.. it is encouraging to note that the one person you may have helped has lead to millions being helped, due to the power of compounding growth.. compounding growth is well illustrated by the rice on a chessboard problem.

if you start with 1 grain of rice on square one, and double it to 2 on the second, 4 on the third, 8 on the fourth, by the last (64th) square there would be 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 grains of rice.. likewise, if you help one person out of the grip of the watchtower this year, then next year you help one more and they help one, in a few years that is going to have a formidable result on the number of jehovahs witnesses.

look at the following statistics.

Old Goat

"Thanks, jw facts and Old Goat, for your findings. The WTS can see the trends, as all of you have pointed out, but I doubt they will change much about their approach and operations. I found Old Goat's experience especially telling. The Witness "historian" he talked to said that apostates have played a role in the development of Witness teaching and culture down through the decades. It is interesting that this same historian couldn't cite holy spirit as that driving force, isn't it? Yet this is the organization that makes new adherents profess belief that it is "spirit directed"! Terry, you were spot on about the Witness mindset. "Willful ignorance" best describes it."

I don't want to misrepressent him. Of course he presented all the usual "scriptural" arguments including the claim that Witnesses are directed by holy spirit. But you've heard all that, right? Retelling that here wouldn't sway anyone, would it? And I wouldn't put the word 'historian' in quotes. He's one of the few Witnesses with impressive letters after his name and a book and articles in his C.V.

140

The effect we are having on the Watchtower is HUGE

by jwfacts in

i was inspired by a recent thread i know i aint gunna crumble the wt, but a girl can dream to look at the effect we as individuals are having on the watchtower society.. 3dogs1husband quoted a story to show that even helping only one person is worth it.. it is encouraging to note that the one person you may have helped has lead to millions being helped, due to the power of compounding growth.. compounding growth is well illustrated by the rice on a chessboard problem.

if you start with 1 grain of rice on square one, and double it to 2 on the second, 4 on the third, 8 on the fourth, by the last (64th) square there would be 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 grains of rice.. likewise, if you help one person out of the grip of the watchtower this year, then next year you help one more and they help one, in a few years that is going to have a formidable result on the number of jehovahs witnesses.

look at the following statistics.

Old Goat

I’m passing on someone else’s reasoning, and I’m not sure I’m doing it well. In a fairly lengthy conversation with a Witnesses historian (He’s a “true believer” and thinks I am too), he likened the “apostate” presence on the Internet to three former periods of Watchtower history. He said that in the 1880s-1890s there were at least eight and maybe more competing magazines debating and trying to “expose” Russell’s theology. Watchtower readers also read these magazines. The same situation happened again with the divisions after Russell’s death. In the 1950s the same place was filled by some prominent and some obscure Apostate-written books.

He believes that the opposition fueled changes and “refinements.” While it created tension and disaffection (He named cases but don’t expect me to remember them. Many of the names didn’t click.) it drove doctrinal development and social change among Watchtower readers. And he said that “authoritarian figures such as religious leaders are not prone to self-examination; sometimes outside pressure accomplishes what wouldn’t otherwise happen.”

At one point I asked him if we weren’t supposed to “hate” apostates. He raised his bushy eyebrows and said, “They don’t generate enough emotion for me to hate them.” He sees us as a kind of Emory Cloth or filter. If I understood what he was trying to say, he thinks apostates have made the Watchtower rethink, reassess and change in some degree former practice. He thinks many who would have pursued baptism and then would have left don’t get baptized at all.

The conversation was long and rambling, but I think that’s the gist of it. In his view we’re part of an inevitable and continuing disaffection. He talked a lot about why people become anti-Witness crusaders, quoted some sociologist about justification. So there you have it … We’re part of an inevitable historical movement, part of normal religious tension that arises with any aggressive, Biblo-centric religion. I feel so special now -

21

Does the Governing Body (or past presidents) members have (or had to) have body guards?

by Joliette in

was watching a biography on the history channel about presidental securities and secrets, how the president is guarded just in case of an attack, an assaination attempt, etc.

it got me to thinking about if any of the past or current gb members (or wt presidents) have ever had any death threats?

do they have a specific plan for a gb member when they visit a city or country?

Old Goat

Serious threats against Rutherford's life were made by Catholics and American Legion, Catholic Legion, and various nativist and American Fascist organizations. An example is a 1937 article in the Intermountain Catholic. Rutherford may have been a [insert unkind word here], but those groups were just nasty. To get the flavor of the nativist, catholic and similar groups in that era you may want to read John Roy Carlson's Under Cover. The book was a sensationalist expose by an Armenian-American journalist who went 'under cover' inside various home-grown Nazi and fascist organizations. The threat against Rutherford was real.

It's like this: Religious nut in Brooklyn calls down divine vengeance on religion, particularly the Catholic priesthood, and fascism. Many small nut cases also of a religious bent seek vengeance. The rest of the country got to watch the show when nothing else was interesting. There was spill over into the Knorr era. The American Legion was still being stupid into the 1950's. But then the American Legion is still stupid, just too drunk too old to be a menace any more.

24

For your reading pleasure, we added 200 more documents to the Watchtower Documents website

by AndersonsInfo in

http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/documents/1800.html.

http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/documents/1900-1919.html.

http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/jw-stories.html.

Old Goat

I notice that you have the Gospel Anchor as edited by Henry Grew. Gospel Anchor was a unversalist paper edited by Henry J. Grew. H. J. Grew was Henry Grew's son. Henry Grew did not share his son's universalist belief.

11

September 15 WT Same old, Same old.

by Slidin Fast in

startfragment.

these paragraphs once again promote the gb/writing commitee to the status of god.

they also blatantly reverse the meaning of acts 17:11 by selectively quoting it, missing out completely the phrase 'as to whether these things were so".

Old Goat

Typical. They confuse themselves with Jesus. Why are these people not on medication. Then, again, maybe they are.

39

Strategizing against the WTBTS

by Essan in

could we be doing more brothers and sisters?

i'm sure i'm not alone in wishing that there was more we could do to hasten the demise of the wtbts and to speed up the exodus of it's members.

and i'm sure i'm not alone in thinking of possible ways to do this.. one which i have been considering lately is to make use of the fact that many who leave the organization actually leave the area, move away, and start a new life.

Old Goat

It is rare, I believe, for someone outside the Witnesses to influence someone to leave. People leave on their own, deciding that they do not want to live the kind of life required or that what the Watchtower teaches is nonsense or that it is a high-stress, high-control dictatorship that does not resemble in any way First Century Christianity.

Plotting protests and similar activities may feed the sense of justification some of us seem to need or feed into some sense of victimization, but it is a waste of time. The very best argument for withdrawing from active fellowship is the nonsense that appears between the covers of The Watchtower. A dictatorial elder, a governing body that is out of touch and rather stupid, a writing staff that worships the governing body in place of the Christ all do more to diminish the Watchtower than anything we could do.

12

Q: When did russel/bible students came up with the 606-1914 calculations?

by Dold Agenda in

jw
friends

q: when did russel/bible students came up with the 606-1914 calculations?.

for russel the invisible precense of jesus started 1874 right?.

but was'nt his year of autumn 1914 when the harma should start based on pyramydology alone?.

Old Goat

Yes, Brown used the 2520 year calculation though it took him to 1917 instead of 1914. He was not the first to use the calculation.

12

Q: When did russel/bible students came up with the 606-1914 calculations?

by Dold Agenda in

jw
friends

q: when did russel/bible students came up with the 606-1914 calculations?.

for russel the invisible precense of jesus started 1874 right?.

but was'nt his year of autumn 1914 when the harma should start based on pyramydology alone?.

Old Goat

The book Nelson Barbour: The Millennium's Forgotten Prophet traces the 2520 year calculation to Joshua Spalding, an American clergyman who wrote about 1800. Russell got the 1914 date from Barbour who in turn extracted it from E. B. Elliott's Horae. Barbour did not hide his reliance on Elliott, but Russell seems never to have mentioned him.

The 606 calculation was rejected by a man named Baldwin who pointed to 607 BC, the date Russellites later accepted. Many of the historical puzzles like this one are answered in that book.

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/nelson-barbour-the-millenniums-forgotten-prophet/5424152?productTrackingContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/1

I cannot recommend this strongly enough. I'm a member of the authors' private history blog. Their work is outstanding. One of the two writers is a Witness; the other is Church of God (Abrahamic Faith). They write straight history. It's well documented and far different from the silliness that shows up here on occasion. Buy and read the book. I'm waiting anxiously for their next book. They've posted exerpts of it on their blog. The research is breathtaking.

56

Happifying? Real WT quote, or are we joking -

by james_woods in

maybe i just missed it, (the story of the word) - but i am seeing this word "happifying" in a lot of threads.. can it possibly be that the wt actually printed this??

?.

Old Goat

The word happifying is strange to the ear, but it is a valid English word. It entered general usage about 1780 and was common through the 1920s. It is an uncommon usage today and well on its way to being considered archaic. It appears in a significant number of late 19th Century theological books. So at least someone back there in New York has been reading something other than their own cra.. umm stuff.

1

They're Back

by Old Goat in

when the watchtower history blog (truthhistory.blogspot.com) people stopped posting on the public site because of harassment issues, apparently from someone using the brooklyn bethel ip address i got access to the private site.

i noticed today that they have now opened it up to public view, saying that the harassment issue was resolved.. the new history blog is here: http://towerhistory.blogspot.com.

this is the best and most detailed material i've seen.

Old Goat

When the watchtower history blog (truthhistory.blogspot.com) people stopped posting on the public site because of harassment issues, apparently from someone using the Brooklyn Bethel IP address I got access to the private site. I noticed today that they have now opened it up to public view, saying that the harassment issue was resolved.

The new history blog is here: http://towerhistory.blogspot.com

This is the best and most detailed material I've seen. It's produced by people who are Witnesses, but it's not the usual crap found ona pro-Witnesses, let's worship Russell site. This is good stuff